Borg Garage "Finding your weakness is only a matter of time"

[MaxiBuckle]

"We want you to be our eyes."

Welcome to the Apoca-Borg garage.

Here we will share our playtesting experiences.

ETA 4: Removed Link - Rules were altered from ballots and hard to follow.
ETA 3: Removed conversational text from this post and added link to all proposed rules currently on ballots.
ETA2: Removed links to Assessment Tools as they are now being assimilated for voting.Assimilated
ETA: Link to the thread that documents the evolution of many of the rules we voted on in the Meeting Hall ballots: Free Time: my apocalypse rules

[Fairyindia2]

Woah, I seemed to have missed a lot of discussion in the Meeting Hall. Curse me for sleeping!!

Is there anything you need me to playtest, Maxi? I I'm not doing much today so I will have the chance to test around.

[MaxiBuckle]

I'd like to see people test the rules that scare them most. Since you offered, I'd like to see the following:

- the motive difference that Needs Perks make for children.
One kid with Full Perks, one kid with no Perks: Culinary and Medical restrictions in place, Energy 3 beds.

- the impact Intelligence and Entertainment make on friendmaking
One sim, 4 loads: All friendmaking happens outside in Winter with a walkby
a. No Gossip, Handshakes but Entertain and Storytelling is OK
b. No Entertain or Storytelling, but Gossip, Handshakes OK
c. Fully restricted with No Gossip, No Handshakes, No Storytelling, No Entertain
d. Unrestricted
e. Flirts are always OK

-Middle of Nowhere fun or confusing?
Take any playable adult you have and plunk him in a safehouse to "lift Hopelessness" under the MoN rules
Take any playable adult you have and build him a house on a 5x5 lot to "lift Hopelessness"

Is it fun? Hard?
While playing MoN (using $3 materials of course), don't lock Wants or Meditate. How is your sim's aspiration doing? Needs?

You could just test everything, like I'm doing. My Tosha Go is barely green now and last I looked at her, she wanted to Study Anger Management. Is the aspiration boost worth the time?

Anybody and everybody can test the new rules and is encouraged to do so. These playtesting suggestions are not assignments, per se. If anyone wants to formally make an assignment board, you are welcome to tack one up in the garage, here. I'll link to it in the top post.

[Callista]

This is not actually in an apocalypse environment, but I think it's relevant:

Body Skilling Testing
Conditions:
Patched game, all EPs, no Stuff packs, empty Downloads folder.
Two Adult Knowledge sims, 5/5/5/5/5 personality. One had Physiology, one did not.
Aspiration was usually kept platinum; motives were made static via Sim Modder and dragged to max as needed.
Both were simultaneously directed to skill Body in various ways.
Season was set at Winter via weather changer.
Nobody had smart milk, energizer, juice, etc.

Acquiring Physiology:
In three tests, Physiology took exactly six hours to learn each time.

Effect on non-Body skilling:
Probably none. Both learned Logic at the same rate. I only tested this once though, so somebody else should probably check me on it because of the randomness of the physiology effect.

Body Skilling:
Method: Work Out by stereo until 3 Body points, then do Yoga until 10.
Without Physiology: 2d 13h 46m
With Physiology: 2d 1h 4m
Time Saved with Physiology: 6 hours 42 minutes

Method: Jump Rope (Easy)
Without Physiology: 3d 12h 14m
With Physiology: 2d 2h 48m
Time Saved with Physiology: 1d 3h 26m

Method: Ballet Barre (Warm Up)
Without Physiology: 3d 15h 13m
With Physiology: 1d 2h 50m
Time saved with Physiology: 2d 6h 23m

Method: Exerto Super Exercise Bike
Without Physiology: 1d 20h 9m
With Physiology: 1d 10h 53m
Time saved with Physiology: 3h 16m

Method: Work Out with $99 stereo
Without Physiology: 4 days 14 hours 38 minutes
With Physiology: 2 days 3 hours 4 minutes
Time saved with Physiology: 2 days 5 hours 34 minutes

The "Physiology Glitch":
Beyond just gaining Body skill faster, sims who have learned physiology seem to have about a 50% chance of quickly gaining a the last few Body skill points. I observed this happening with the Ballet Barre and the Stereo-Only experiments, and it might have happened with the jump rope, but I'm really not sure.

Other Considerations:
Motive Loss:
The $99 stereo cause Comfort, Energy, and Hygiene loss--the only method I tested that dropped Comfort as well as the usual Energy and Hygiene.
The exercise bike dropped Hygiene and Energy about as fast as the stereo.
The ballet barre caused less severe Hygiene and Energy loss.
Jump Rope caused very mild Hygiene and Energy loss.
Yoga caused no extra motive loss.

Jump Rope has three speeds (Easy/Medium/Hard). The harder speeds gain Body faster, but increase Energy and Hygiene loss by a little. The net effect is not very strong though because Jump Rope doesn't have much Hygiene and Energy loss to begin with. Sims maxing body with the jump rope will save about twelve to sixteen hours if they switch to the higher speeds as soon as possible.

Sims doing yoga will autonomously stop if they fall, which happens at all levels below 10 Body.

Ballet Exercises are available on the Basic Barre at Body 7. I didn't test their effect.

The Jump Rope speeds become available at Body 4 and Body 7. Sims don't stop jumping if they get tangled in the rope.

Conclusions:
The Physiology "sudden gain" effect with a patched game happens randomly and cannot be depended on; so we should probably count it as a lucky break, much like chance cards.

I don't have an unpatched game to test and would like input from somebody who has one. How does Physiology behave in an unpatched game? Is it worth it specifying that you have to patch your game?

The overall Physiology effect is strong enough to save your sim about six to twelve hours guaranteed, which may be enough to consider banning.

Stereo is by far the most inferior workout method, not just because it takes the longest, but because it depletes Comfort and not just Energy and Hygiene. Sims who exercise by stereo pretty much have to sleep afterward, since that's the only good way to gain Comfort without bubble baths and expensive chairs.

Yoga is faster than the jump rope, even if the sim switches speeds as soon as it becomes possible. The slight motive drain for jump rope will probably not be too significant; it seems to be less than half of what you get with yoga.

Physiology is much less powerful than simply lifting Athletics and using proper exercise equipment--even if the physiology "gain the last three points near-instantly" thing happens.

[MaxiBuckle]

The M&G pack is what borked Physiology. Without Pescado's fix, the sim who studied Physiology will max body in 2 hours, and proceed to max the rest of his skills in less than 2 days.

I want to Study Physiology, but is it reasonable to ask every M&G owner to install a mod and level the playing field?

[Callista]

Ouch. Yeah, I see where you're coming from. By itself, it really isn't too powerful and doesn't need to be outright banned (restricted maybe but not banned), but glitched up like that? wow.

I can see that there has to be a solution here, but I don't like requiring an unofficial mod either, however useful it is.

How about this? According to the body research I did, Physiology by itself isn't too powerful unless you are also restricting athletic equipment. If we put Physiology in the Athletics category and required M&G users to install a mod or else not study Physiology at all, it wouldn't be too much of an advantage to be able to study Physiology because Body would become easy to gain anyway, and not too much of a disadvantage not to have it because, hey, if you're maxing Body in less than two days anyway, what does it matter if you save six hours by studying Physiology?

[Dellyo]

I want to Study Physiology, but is it reasonable to ask every M&G owner to install a mod and level the playing field?

I think the M&G glitch should be mentioned in a side note to the rules (maybe a little M&G section) along with the fix available. But I think we should leave it up to the player if they either want to have the fix in the game or not use Study Physiology. Or use the AnyGame Starter and simply not add M&G. Then it should be fair enough.

If someone decides to to Study Physiology and use the glitch as an advantage, well... I wouldn't do it because I'd feel like I had cheated and that would make the challenge pointless, anyway. But cheating is always possible, we can't control that. Making players aware of this glitch and offering advice on how to work around it should be enough.

[Fairyindia2]

- the motive difference that Needs Perks make for children.
One kid with Full Perks, one kid with no Perks: Culinary and Medical restrictions in place, Energy 3 beds.

Okay, I have done a bit of playtesting in that area:

Playtesting: How need perks affect children:

I went into CAS and made one adult and two children. Both children were identical in looks and identical in personality. They were moved into the Witch Hut safehouse with 3 beds at 3 energy, one fridge, the most expensive sink and cheapest toilet and the cheapest table and chairs. The Culinary and Medical restrictions were in place. The neighbourhood seasons were set to Winter/Winter/Winter/Winter.

I am referring to the child with the need perks as Child A and the child without need perks as Child B.

Since CAS children start with only 2 perk points, one child started off with 2 need perks while the other had none. Both were sent to school on move in day with full needs from maxmotives. This was the only time maxmotives was used on their needs.

Observations:

Child A's motives certainly didn't drop as quickly as Child B's did while at school and doing handwashing etc. Child B needed more attention than Child A while at home doing activities, skilling etc. Child A could keep doing one activity for longer than Child B which does have an impact on the nature of the challenge. Handwashing wasn't needed as frequently for Child A as Child B. However the need difference between the both of them wasn't a great amount.

Conclusion:

For one, they definitely should be restricted under a restriction. Personally I don't see the need to double/triple restrict them, I think one restriction would do. I also believe all need perks should be grouped together under one restriction, instead of it getting confusing with "the hygiene and bladder need perk is restricted under Medical, the energy need perk is restricted under Pet Security etc".

Pull my observations apart as you wish, and if anybody else wants to test out this too, that is perfectly okay with me. We need second opinions just to confirm what we need to do with need perks.

The M&G pack is what borked Physiology. Without Pescado's fix, the sim who studied Physiology will max body in 2 hours, and proceed to max the rest of his skills in less than 2 days.

I want to Study Physiology, but is it reasonable to ask every M&G owner to install a mod and level the playing field?

I've never had a sim Study Physiology before so I didn't realise how that could be exploited in this challenge. I don't think we should ask every M&G owner to download a 3rd party mod to fix it, instead I think we should just leave it up to them whether they want to or not.

We should restrict Study Physiology under a restriction eg. Athletic, and completely ban it for M&G users if the player doesn't wish to download the mod to fix it.

[Dellyo]

Oh, and maybe add a link to the fix because there might be other people who are as blind as I am and can't find it...

[ladylarkrune]

Regarding the Needs perks for children...

I started with a CAS adult and two twin toddlers who start with 0 perks. One toddler was left alone and only given happy things to keep the kid from screaming, while the other learned all of their skills so could have the full 5 perks possible when aging up to child.

The child without the perks - Child A had fun, energy, hunger and hygiene drop faster than child B. On average, child B could go for about 1-2 sim hours longer than child A before a break was needed to take care of their needs. (My poor adult was fixing sinks like crazy when they weren't meditating) Because of the needs perks - Child B could finish homework faster with only one break to rebuild fun (as opposed to the 2 breaks Child A needed). The amount of time spent handwashing was the same (so the perks do not affect how fast things are raised) however it did drop slower - on average of a rate of about 10% slower. When both kids reached teen, both had managed to get A+ grades however Child B got it one day before child A. And Child B had 3 more skills total than Child A (however one was not directed - stupid cleaning up after puddles)

So from this, there is an advantage. And with the ones gotten from aspiration stacking it will make a difference. However, it doesn't make enough of a difference to double or triple restrict them.

My suggestion is to throw the WHOLE lot of FreeTime Perks (needs, Work, and Aspiration) under Intelligence and call it good. The pleading for job under work needs would be restricted by gamer (so hope you get fired on a tuesday) not to mention you can't take vacation days. The Family twin benefit would actually be a hindrance Early on. Summoning aliens is still restricted by Music. Drinking song (pleasure) doesn't do much and it doesn't significantly add to social or fun. Super Popular (popularity) is nice and can help with befriending walkbys, but it doesn't seem to affect phone calls. Investing (fortune) can either raise or lower your family funds. And for most of us, other than really early on we have more funds than we can spend - and the 3rd perk (financial consulting) is already limited by Science and Gamer. Smooth Talk (romance) gives a nice boost initially but it can be rejected and it does get rid of furiousness but that benefit isn't that great. As for the Grilled Cheese one of conjuring Grilled Cheese, the energy and other needs drain to not make up for getting a nice grilled cheese sandwich and you can't Paint Grilled Cheese until Artist is lifted anyway.

My suggestion regarding secondary Aspirations is to roll for them just like is proscribed under Education until Education is lifted. Trust me that even if you lift intelligence or whatever career they are put under, you are still going to have the same crap shoot as before Education is lifted. Also, Early on, before culinary is lifted, grilled cheese would be the world's worst aspiration to get as a secondary since it fills up the wants panel like nothing you've ever seen.

[MaxiBuckle]

lady, I'm assimilating your opinions onto the FT Perks Worksheet. I can't tell if you think SA should have to be lifted before selected?

i.e. Do you think sims have to settle for only one aspiration until Intelligence (your choice) is lifted?

ETA: I'm thinking Sim Child B will one day have a better chance of surviving pregnancy with no meditation than sim child A. Good motivation for mommy and daddy to teach those Toddler skills (which will now take so much longer to learn).

[ladylarkrune]

I think that sims should settle for only one aspiration until Intelligence (or whatever career we put this under) is lifted. After that, I think that the secondary aspiration needs to be randomly selected (like how aspirations are selected pre-education) until Education is lifted. Because if you want a powerhouse, Nothing beats popularity/Knowledge or knowledge/Popularity. Popularity for the social and the ability to do 3-way calling (which early on can be powerful) and Knowledge for the "Eureka" moments which can really boost skilling.

I don't think restricting them further though is necessary.

[MaxiBuckle]

Thanks. Now I have to go fill my Hygiene and Hunger bars. After that, I'm having a go with Tosha Go.

[Callista]

Actually, Grilled Cheese secondary aspiration is the most powerful secondary aspiration. Hands down.

Why? "Talk about Grilled Cheese", otherwise known as "automatic platinum". That want rolls up constantly and it'll be accepted by any sim nice enough to stand still while your sim talks about grilled cheese, or by any sim with a GC primary or secondary. It will keep your sim platinum and yes, it will roll up again after you fulfill it, so you can often chain six or seven Talk wants.

[MaxiBuckle]

I showed my husband the new boolprop domain for the AC, hopeful he would be able to help me set up the website. He said, "I didn't learn about this kind. I can show you in Dreamweaver, though." Well, he'd better learn, and so will I.

In other news, I've been playing my College Grad Tosha Go (yep, the Pleasantview Townie) with all the proposed rules and an Energy 3 bed. I'm having a great time and I think we are going to make it! May need some Elixir, but it's a given now that folks will bring back at least one bottle from college.

Don't anyone even think of playtesting an Adult Start yet. This is delightfully hard and wonderful. I'm thinking the FT Adult Starts will need to follow Darby's example and lift a relatively low skill career like Business or Gamer.

I'm taking a few photos, but nothing spectacular.

[Callista]

Adult Start is supposed to be incredibly hard; that's the point! Another option, which has worked for me in the past, is to have your female founder have a child instead of lifting a career--there is nothing in the Hopelessness rules about not having children; only not moving people in! Of course, you will have to raise the child with a single parent quickly turning senile elder, under full Apoc restrictions...

Once these rules crystallize a bit, I'm going to try it. Probably with Bella Goth, 'cause I just can't resist torturing Bella Goth...

[Blaqhawk]

There are those who simply lacked time management or enough time to keep playing an apoc. In my case, the reasons I stopped writing my apocs were due to game crashes and or hardware crashes. That and lack of time for such...

Maxi, did you get my input reguarding the MnG solar panels and windmills?

[MaxiBuckle]

Maxi, did you get my input reguarding the MnG solar panels and windmills?

Yep, they are assimilated onto the MnG Scratch Paper, although I didn't copy all of the flavor text.

[Fairyindia2]

Another option, which has worked for me in the past, is to have your female founder have a child instead of lifting a career--there is nothing in the Hopelessness rules about not having children; only not moving people in! Of course, you will have to raise the child with a single parent quickly turning senile elder, under full Apoc restrictions...

So you can do that then? I wondered whether you could. It seems like a pretty good idea to me, though of course it'll make your challenge harder in the long run, uncontrollable elders and all restrictions in place etc. It's definitely something that might help the adult start become possible.

I am going to try and do a bit more playtesting today, using a college graduate. Hmm I'll probably use Stella Terrano (that alien LFT CAS sim). Now I just have to remind myself of the FT rules we've got so far... and not confuse them with my actual apocalypse challenge. I'll take some photos too, but it won't be many. I also have something I found while playing my apocalypse challenge... I'm not sure if it's true but it's what I noticed. It's concerning being in "The Zone":

Now, about "The Zone". It doesn't really affect needs a great deal, but the main thing it does is... I believe it makes needs decrease slower and skills gain faster. Of course somebody at the Apoca-Borg can confirm that while playtesting, but it was what I gained from watching Bryce do it.

If anybody knows whether this is true or not, then I'm sure it would be quite valuable information, even if it is something hard to restrict.

[Callista]

Somebody mentioned using the "Danger Zone" rule. But it isn't particularly needed if the Zone effect isn't that big.